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19 Players

Post by LukeO9 on Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:16 am

As we wait for the official ruling by the SANFL on the matter of North having 19 players on the field for part of the 4th quarter yesterday, I read a flurry of posts and tweets on the subject and wonder how West supporters and particularly the West Adelaide FC would say or act if such an event happened against them. Lee?
I ask not in terms of when the event occurred, but on what we know occurred.
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Re: 19 Players

Post by TAAARS on Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:43 am

At the very least any score Norf scored while 19 men were on the field should be wiped. The incompetence displayed by the umpires and Eagles officials was staggering. The SANFL is heading for amateur status the way it is going.
My guess the SANFL will look at the $'s for the Grand final and let it go.
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Re: 19 Players

Post by Oldfella on Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:58 am

My best guess based on poor memory is that north will play on but sanfl will announce some penalties

North fined --- league appointed interchange steward suspended -- north team manager and/interchange official fined or suspended.

Big question in my mind is that issue was raised with emergency umpire and also with field umpires who apparently fif little --- will the sanfl show some resolve --- dont be stupid

On sanfl waiting for announcement on improved ports playing conditions grrrr

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Re: 19 Players

Post by TAAARS on Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:09 pm

We should be backing the Eagles position on this IMHO. Why? because the Eagles,South and West have the smallest supporter base and unfortunately $'s are the overriding consideration. A North v Norwood GF is a bigger crowd puller than Norwood v Eagles. What is right comes second. This could happen to us for the same reasons one day.
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Re: 19 Players

Post by LukeO9 on Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:06 pm

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Re: 19 Players

Post by Lee Harradine on Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:06 pm

I suspect this one has no absolute answer that will satisfy everyone.

To me, there are many questions, not just the 19 men on the field. I'm not sure if the rule is still in that a player entering the field against the rules can't go back on. That hasn't been discussed and it may not be relevant anyway.

I don't know how a team would react, but I think the Eagles were originally OK with the result, but then became more concerned as more facts came to light.

The one thing I would say is that the interchange officials from the clubs and the SANFL are basically volunteers who would be doing it tough right now and I sympathise with them.

I wouldn't be surprised at any of the outcomes below:

North win stands, NOrth get a heavy fine

Result overturned

Replay.

Lawyers' picnic.
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Re: 19 Players

Post by firstblood on Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:14 pm

Hey Lee, surely North knew they had an extra man on the field, 5 minutes is a long time to realize that there is one player missing off the bench.

If it were Westies in that position with an extra man on the field, no doubt a decision would have been made not long after the game and we wouldn't be playing in a grand final. Smile
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Re: 19 Players

Post by LukeO9 on Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:38 pm

Lee Harradine wrote:
Replay.

I was leaning toward subtracting the points scored during the infringement, but I can see how a replay would fit well, including the $s the SANFL is alleged to crave.
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Re: 19 Players

Post by TAAARS on Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:42 pm

How's this for a scenario? West are in the Grand final with 60 seconds to go against shall we call them the "Fictional Cheats". West are 6 points up when the FC's score a point. Unnoticed the FC's slip an extra player on during the kick in. West come out of the defensive half only to lose the ball on the wing. The FC's charge forward with a loose player and end up scoring a goal. The FC's win the Grand Final!
No one notices at this point as players and officials run onto the ground in celebrations.
It is not until the replay is played that the cheating manoeuvre is discovered.
What does the SANFL do then?
Fine the FC's but the flag is theirs?
Reverse the result?
Replay the game?
Would we be saying we would have lost it anyway? I don't think so.
Only option 2 is the fair result. Being any score while they had 19 men is wiped
Not saying North did it deliberately this time but if they are allowed to get away with 5 minutes what could that lead to in future?
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Re: 19 Players

Post by Lee Harradine on Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:50 pm

firstblood wrote:Hey Lee, surely North knew they had an extra man on the field, 5 minutes is a long time to realize that there is one player missing off the bench.

If it were Westies in that position with an extra man on the field, no doubt a decision would have been made not long after the game and we wouldn't be playing in a grand final. Smile

Not necessarily as easy as that. North had injuries and they may have presumed a player was down in the rooms getting treatment. This happens often. The coach would have his playing positions for the team to see at 3/4 time, so nobody expects an extra player on the field.

It's a can of worms, not easy at all.
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Re: 19 Players

Post by Lee Harradine on Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:51 pm

TAAARS wrote:How's this for a scenario? West are in the Grand final with 60 seconds to go against shall we call them the "Fictional Cheats". West are 6 points up when the FC's score a point. Unnoticed the FC's slip an extra player on during the kick in. West come out of the defensive half only to lose the ball on the wing. The FC's charge forward with a loose player and end up scoring a goal. The FC's win the Grand Final!
No one notices at this point as players and officials run onto the ground in celebrations.
It is not until the replay is played that the cheating manoeuvre is discovered.
What does the SANFL do then?
Fine the FC's but the flag is theirs?
Reverse the result?
Replay the game?
Would we be saying we would have lost it anyway? I don't think so.
Only option 2 is the fair result. Being any score while they had 19 men is wiped
Not saying North did it deliberately this time but if they are allowed to get away with 5 minutes what could that lead to in future?

Very interesting hypothetical, TAAARS, good point.
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Re: 19 Players

Post by LukeO9 on Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:12 pm

TAAARS wrote:How's this for a scenario?
This is (one of) the SANFL's dilemma.
The part of the rule that specifies how the matter should be relayed to the umpires (via captain) may not have a bearing on the penalty of the offense. That is, the offense is not diminished because of who(m) it was that notified the officials. To ignore this point would be to invite a "lawyer's picnic" as Lee put it.
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Re: 19 Players

Post by Oldfella on Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:52 am

Different game but when discussing cricket rules my great friend lee always points to the rule that identifies the spirit of the game comes first.

IMO, whilst this decision meets legal needs and, as noted by the learned man, he was limited in his actions this decision is clearly against the spirit of the game of football and is a legal yes but very disappointing decision that sets a strong precedence for teams to breech the rules and then claim negligence.

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Re: 19 Players

Post by Blood At Heart on Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:26 am

I'm sure that the fact that Betting Agencies would have already paid out on the result would have had some effect on the desion as well....
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Re: 19 Players

Post by LukeO9 on Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:28 am

Oldfella wrote:....he was limited in his actions this decision is clearly against the spirit of the game...

I agree. If the tribunal doesn't have the power to make a ruling it wishes (replay), then who does? And who(m)ever that is, why don't they act in accordance with the tribunal's want?
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Re: 19 Players

Post by TAAARS on Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:43 pm

I am appalled at the ruling. What message does this send out to the dozens of amateur and country clubs throughout the state? You can cheat if it is not a big cheat as all that will happen is a fine and points deducted next season. How next season has anything to do with it is beyond me? Who knows what players would even be available next year in most clubs.
It is like teaching your kids that shoplifting is ok if it is only say a Mars bar but don't try and pinch a TV.
Usually I would barrack for the underdog in the Grand final if West are not in it and I don't care who wins. This year however I hope Norwood win by a comfortable margin to right the wrong and keep some integrity on the season.
If North get up the cup will be forever tainted in my opinion.
The fact a Supreme Court judge came up with this ruling is all the more disturbing.
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Re: 19 Players

Post by Mypaspective on Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:01 pm

It’s simple IMO.
if it is detected at any stage that a team has 19 on the ground it is against the rules & the spirit of the game whether it is an accident or not. Surely there are enough officials on the interchange bench to control this properly.
Result: Total offending team’s score should be annulled up to the time of the offence. Virtually game over at that point unless it happens earlier in the game.

Now let’s all wait for Karma.
NAFC spend thousands on setting up at Prospect for a win as all clubs do. They lose to Norwood & a third of the anticipated supporters go back to the club & it loses thousands of dollars in addition to the $10K fine & 4 pts next season. YUK & well deserved!!!
PS: Assuming they lose, NAFC also should not be paid the runner up cheque for the GF from SANFL because it virtually reduces their fine to only $5K.
It should be paid to the Eagles as compensation & embarrassment for the fiasco.

Bottom line, if this happened to us we would be spewing.
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Re: 19 Players

Post by LukeO9 on Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:42 am

TAAARS wrote:The fact a Supreme Court judge came up with this ruling is all the more disturbing.
I too am confused in the determine that a cancellation of North's win would be too harsh a penalty, when the rules state one of the harshest penalty for such an offense.
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Re: 19 Players

Post by LukeO9 on Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:46 am

If there were a replay, I would go....and to the GF.
As it stands now, I'm not going to the GF.
I'm sure my stance is shared by significant numbers.
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Re: 19 Players

Post by TAAARS on Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:49 am

I would love to try this defence to a drink driving charge.
Well your Honour ..you see although I blew .09 I could not be blamed for this because the calculations I and the publican used as to how many beers I  could have over the given period resulted in an unforseen error and hence the breaking of the law.
I'm sure the Judge would say something along the lines of.....Well Mr TAAARS a licence suspension is too unfair for you. So I think a small fine and off you go.  4 demerit points to be accrued next year!
Yeah right! And I believe in fairies.
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Re: 19 Players

Post by TAAARS on Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:53 pm

To me this whole judgment/penalty thing has a $ smell about it.
The SANFL wanted a North v Norwood grand final because they reckoned it would pull in more through the gate. A way had to be found to achieve that.
In true public service fashion the tactic of starting with the desired outcome and working back from there was adopted.
Enter a "neutral Judge" with the brief to just make it happen.
The SANFL tribunal members/commissioners  etc left with clean hands.
I hope neutral supporters boycott the game in protest.
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Re: 19 Players

Post by Mypaspective on Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:39 pm

That is a lot of rubbish TAARS.

Why would a Supreme Court judge risk his reputation by taking a brief that you suggest.

Sorry mate but you are on the wrong tram with that theory.
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Re: 19 Players

Post by aldo russian on Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:28 pm

Agreed MP. You can challenge his judgment but not his integrity I think.
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Re: 19 Players

Post by TAAARS on Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:20 pm

Point taken. I am not saying he is taking a bribe or anything like that but  you have to ask why was he the one to be asked to come up with a ruling. My guess (and it is only a guess) he is friends with one or more of the SANFL commissioners (nothing wrong with that) knew what way they were hoping it would go,and they knew he would likely be sympathetic or share that view before he was asked.
The mates network goes on in nearly all industries you know or are we all too naive to believe that?
From my limited experiance with the courts in civil and family law matters most of the decisions are made outside the courtroom.
As MP pointed out above,his ruling is contary to the rules and spirit of the game.
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Re: 19 Players

Post by aldo russian on Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:36 pm

I'd be thinking he was asked to rule on it because it was a legal (or legalistic) matter, rather than the more mundane matters that the tribunal is equipped to deal with.
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